American torture of Iraqi prisoners

[Frequency]

It's not funny at all but strange how when America does some minor incident, it is all over the news and when Iraq does something a lot worse (mutilation for example), its quiet down. Then again, what Iraq does is totally not suitable and humain to show to the public. It is down right disgusting.

It is very sad that there is no big jump in other countries helping the Coalition team. They are all helping fight for your freedom and futures... then when those people can not see the good deeds in the long term for them. I suggest you think about what all this means for you and your family. Life is presious and too short to fight against each other.

[JustRising]

It's not funny at all but strange how when America does some minor incident, it is all over the news and when Iraq does something a lot worse (mutilation for example), its quiet down.

Is it really? Watch the interviews with the soldiers who are back from the war and they tell you how what we see is totally different than what happens...?
We always, like any other country always focus on what happens to ours first and that's right and just the way it is... for every time you see an american soldier died, capture etc. do you hear how many iragy soldiers, and civilians are dying?!

Every time I hear about this kind of crap going on in the middle east, it just makes me wonder if it wouldn't be easier if we just turned the entire region into a parking lot.

Woudn't it be easier if we just doen't stick our nose there, then we even save money making the parking lot...

[Stormwalker]

i have to wonder what they would do left to their own devices.. most likely annhilate each other.. and then the whole world would be up in arms because we didnt do anything... tis a real catch - 22...

[Terraner]

Just remember: the prisoners who were being humiliated were in prison because they were attempting to KILL people. Furthermore, they jeopardized Iraqi civilian lives by hiding in homes and moques and wearing civilian clothing.

This does not justify what the Americans did; the Americans who did this should get court marshalled...but remember these prisoners were there for a reason. Don't think of these "poor guys" as civilians. They're cold-blooded killers that are more of a danger to the average Iraqi on the street than an American soldier is.

Just one little argument against your statement. What about "innocent until proven guilty"?
Oh, o.k. If you believe everything mass media servs us, then yes, they are. I supose at least part of them are truely guilty. But then there is much propaganda. On both sides!
In the end: There is everything allowed in love and war. And in this case it's WAR. There are no innocent bystanders in it. Not even us!

[radstar]

I just wish I could be God for a day and make world peace.... forever of course

[enkydu]

What about "innocent until proven guilty"?

I agree whole-heartedly, and honestly thought about that while I was typing my post...but then I realized that I was writing in a forum where the American soliders have already been condemned without a trial.

And in fairness, I did pointedly say that I was not justifying what the Americans did and I did advocate court marshalling all those involved. I was merely trying to put things in perspective. Even though most of the people being held in American prisons in Iraq are killers (or at best, would-be killers) they should obviously be treated humanely.

[bebbaboo]

Back to "The Experiment". I rented it last night and started watching, but was not able to finish because of time contraints. But it was REALLY spooky. I got to the point where the "guards" realized they had to control the "prisoners" without using violence. So what did they do? They said if they couldn't use violence, they would have to use humiliation ... and so they striped them down naked and took away their clothes and beds. The ring-leader of the prisoners even got handcuffed to the bars ... the images looked startlingly like the pictures from Iraq. VERY SURREAL.

The movie says at the beginning that it is fiction, but there was such an experiment back in the 70s at a college in California. The guards and prisoners were all students hired for like $5/day to stay for the duration. It got totally out of control and all of the students ended up having to go to therapy for years because of the violence they perpetrated or endured. I would hate to think I would react the same, but apparently it is in our nature ... and that is horrendous.

I'm going to watch the rest of the movie tonight. It scares me a little, but I really want to see how it proceeds to insanity.

[discostu]

Back to "The Experiment". I rented it last night and started watching, but was not able to finish because of time contraints. But it was REALLY spooky. I got to the point where the "guards" realized they had to control the "prisoners" without using violence. So what did they do? They said if they couldn't use violence, they would have to use humiliation ... and so they striped them down naked and took away their clothes and beds. The ring-leader of the prisoners even got handcuffed to the bars ... the images looked startlingly like the pictures from Iraq. VERY SURREAL.

The movie says at the beginning that it is fiction, but there was such an experiment back in the 70s at a college in California. The guards and prisoners were all students hired for like $5/day to stay for the duration. It got totally out of control and all of the students ended up having to go to therapy for years because of the violence they perpetrated or endured. I would hate to think I would react the same, but apparently it is in our nature ... and that is horrendous.

I'm going to watch the rest of the movie tonight. It scares me a little, but I really want to see how it proceeds to insanity.

watch it to the end.. it will shock you...
i must say a really really good german movie

[JustRising]

I agree whole-heartedly, and honestly thought about that while I was typing my post...but then I realized that I was writing in a forum where the American soliders have already been condemned without a trial.

And in fairness, I did pointedly say that I was not justifying what the Americans did and I did advocate court marshalling all those involved. I was merely trying to put things in perspective. Even though most of the people being held in American prisons in Iraq are killers (or at best, would-be killers) they should obviously be treated humanely.

I think american soldiers already proven their guilt. did anybody accuse them before about mis treating the prisoners before the pictures started appearing every where? That's not enough evidence?

[bebbaboo]

Oh, I will. I just wish I spoke German ... I've never been very good at reading sub-titles.

[bebbaboo]

I think american soldiers already proven their guilt. did anybody accuse them before about mis treating the prisoners before the pictures started appearing every where? That's not enough evidence?

I agree. They are guilty ... Guilty of dishonoring America. Guilty of being stupid and arrogant. Guilty of undermining the little respect that the world community still has for us. They need to have jail time. To show others that we, as Americans, do NOT condone such behaviour. Just once, I'd like to hear that one of them had apologized. All we are hearing is whining that no one trained them, or that that was what they were told to do. Not one has stood up and said .. that was wrong and I am ashamed and sorry.

Sure these priosoners are not the kid next door. They may indeed be murderers and terrorists. But they just as well might be that kid from a country that sees invaders coming in and who has fought the battle he thinks is right. I'm not sure how I would react if I saw tanks and armed soldiers from another country roaming my streets. No matter how bad it had been before.

Don't get me wrong. I'm glad we went over there, and I'm glad we're still there. I think it needed to be done. I'm sorry that the Iraqi people are not able to accept that we are trying to rebuild (or build) their infastructure so that they can have a stable existence after we leave. One of the big complaints by the Afghans before the last war was that we left too quickly without helping them rebuild. Now we are being killed for doing just that. We can't win.

BUT, that doesn't mean we are allowed to lower our level of decency. Okay .. I could rant for hours. I'd better get back to work.

Thanks for listening.

[enkydu]

Don't get me wrong. I'm glad we went over there, and I'm glad we're still there. I think it needed to be done. I'm sorry that the Iraqi people are not able to accept that we are trying to rebuild (or build) their infastructure so that they can have a stable existence after we leave. One of the big complaints by the Afghans before the last war was that we left too quickly without helping them rebuild. Now we are being killed for doing just that. We can't win.

BUT, that doesn't mean we are allowed to lower our level of decency.

I agree...great post.

[redbear]

stormwalker quoting "ehowa.com" : that has to be the best commentary on this whole thing. nothing but a little humilation and the whole world goes nuts over it. i personally think the prisoners got off easy if that is all they had to worry about. unfortunately, the soldiers won't, which is a shame. with today's politics, if this had never come to light, they might have received a slap on the hand. maybe. but now that these photos leaks 4 months later, they will proably all lose their jobs, a possible court-martial and have to work at minimum wage jobs... and what exactly are they guilty of ?? getting caught. advice: next time don't take pictures.


but one good thing might come from all of this....this might go against Bush and keep him from getting re-elected. doubt it but you never know.

[JustRising]

I agree. They are guilty ... Guilty of dishonoring America. Guilty of being stupid and arrogant. Guilty of undermining the little respect that the world community still has for us. They need to have jail time. To show others that we, as Americans, do NOT condone such behaviour. Just once, I'd like to hear that one of them had apologized. All we are hearing is whining that no one trained them, or that that was what they were told to do. Not one has stood up and said .. that was wrong and I am ashamed and sorry.

Sure these priosoners are not the kid next door. They may indeed be murderers and terrorists. But they just as well might be that kid from a country that sees invaders coming in and who has fought the battle he thinks is right. I'm not sure how I would react if I saw tanks and armed soldiers from another country roaming my streets. No matter how bad it had been before.

Don't get me wrong. I'm glad we went over there, and I'm glad we're still there. I think it needed to be done. I'm sorry that the Iraqi people are not able to accept that we are trying to rebuild (or build) their infastructure so that they can have a stable existence after we leave. One of the big complaints by the Afghans before the last war was that we left too quickly without helping them rebuild. Now we are being killed for doing just that. We can't win.

BUT, that doesn't mean we are allowed to lower our level of decency. Okay .. I could rant for hours. I'd better get back to work.

Thanks for listening.

You said it all...

[bebbaboo]

Okay. Just got the news that the Iraqis have beheaded an American as revenge for the abuse at the prisons. HELLO!!!! What we did wasn't right ... humiliation, nakedness, cement cells. It's all bad. But beheading someone! These people are monsters!